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You SHOULD be good at the game when reviewing it and passing opinion on it. That's my opinion.

MonsterTRL
404 postsPosts: 421 ✭✭✭
Just going to drop this here as one of my last posts i'll be making



Since all the fuss about the gaming "journalist" that couldn't pass the first level of cuphead i've been thinking more about this.

I think this is on topic for this place since the people's opinions, including journalists are always used to justify certain claims about what is good or bad in Titanfall. I've always took a stance of - if you aren't good at something how can you possibly begin to pass a solid opinion on it? That doesn't mean you can't voice opinion, it just means why should it hold the same weight? And this is especially apparent for gaming journalists. I can't stand when a "journalist" is wretched at a game and yet still reviews it.



Comments

  • Jinko_itx
    17 postsPosts: 21
    unfortunately that is how many Americans are, judgmental without understanding. I'm an American that went overseas and was there for 3 years and what I witnessed was My countrymen passing judgment on certain things in the country I was in and not being there to understand why...I know this has nothing to do with the game but the same principle applies.its just how it is here, the next generation are going to be even worse.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    MonsterTRL wrote: »
    Just going to drop this here as one of my last posts i'll be making



    Since all the fuss about the gaming "journalist" that couldn't pass the first level of cuphead i've been thinking more about this.

    I think this is on topic for this place since the people's opinions, including journalists are always used to justify certain claims about what is good or bad in Titanfall. I've always took a stance of - if you aren't good at something how can you possibly begin to pass a solid opinion on it? That doesn't mean you can't voice opinion, it just means why should it hold the same weight? And this is especially apparent for gaming journalists. I can't stand when a "journalist" is wretched at a game and yet still reviews it.

    Best thing is to read abroad. Experts can be biased and have political motives so you need to scrutinize their credentials and make you're own mind as to whether their opinions (evidence based or feeling based) you subscribe to. Similarly inexperienced player opinions can be interesting to hear because they may have some completely weird thought that you won't have considered otherwise.

    I quite like reading about a game from people with different skill levels because it highlights whether the game has a good 'easy to learn, difficult to master' design. Does the game require you to study it in depth, or is it pick up and play and have a fun time.
  • wordnoise
    1657 postsPosts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is a modern world issue. You cannot believe everything you read.

    You need to find reviewers you trust and agree with. People who would enjoy similar games to you.

    Anyone can reveiw games and anyone can set up a website. Freedom of speech and all that. It's not freedoms fault that so many people talk bull.
  • crabman169
    950 postsPosts: 1,005 ✭✭✭✭
    Case in point a movie reviewer gave American Made 2/5 stars and thought that the green screen flying scenes boring amongst other 'issues'

    Quite obvious they did zero research before and after the film. Tom Cruise is actually a fully qualified and licensed pilot; majority of the flight film was him actually flying a plane not a prop and green screen

    ~

    Anywho I decide whether or not I like something not others who have no idea what I like and gave their own agendas. If I'm unsure about a product I'll do a bit of poking around.

    Yes and no. As you said people with more skill/hours/knowledge etc have more weight in their posts (which is usually pretty obvious) but that doesn't mean people brand new to something should be shunned out of giving feedback and opinions.

    People should be able to think for themselves in all aspects.
    15 hours to 100% TF2
  • lamb_EAOrigin
    740 postsPosts: 779 ✭✭✭
    I wouldn't say you need to be good at it. That more demonstrates how you can or you are willing to handle issues. Foe example, someone running a 5 kd versus pilots using the best tactics to do so, like only using the imba stuff, playing defensive and only modes, where you can pick up people more easily. If this player claims the Carbine isn't imbalanced, it's also nonsense.
    You should understand the game, thus, before claiming the Carbine is imba, you should have played with and against it, while knowing how other weapons relate to it, as this claim is relative to the other stuff. Imo, the more PoV through which the game has been perceived and the more you are able to ignore personal preferences in the grand scheme, the more valuable is the feedback.
  • Magikf1ngers
    4656 postsPosts: 4,711 mod
    edited September 2017
    I, for the most part, agree with this.

    Basically - when you're writing about anything - you have to be at least educated in the subject. It's very clear to me that a lot of reviewers on the internet either A: are NOT familiar with what they're reviewing (Things like "I have a close friend who xxxxx - so that means xxxx!" or B: Are told what their reviews should be.

    That being said - and I'm not watching that video here at work, so take this part with a grain of salt - but while I think reviewers need to be intimately familiar with the game - I don't know that "expert" is required. By that I mean - look at coaches. They have deep, intimate knowledge of the game they're coaching - rules, strategy, etc, and most have played a lot before. However, they may not be, as an example, an expert Quarterback, but they know how to USE an expert Quarterback.

    Same applies with the game. Someone can have spent hundreds of hours in the game, and while be on the high end of amateur competition, wouldn't be an "expert" in the strictest sense of the word. However, they would know game physics, tactics, strategies, maps, weapons, etc - because they've used / played them all.

    However - if someone obviously has not played the game, or played it once for an afternoon, by no means are they qualified to give it a review.

    ***EDIT***

    Sentiment stands, but I misread @MonsterTRL 's title to this and I thought he said expert - my apologies. Looks like we agree on this one.
    Come find me on the PC side - Magikf1ngers - network SLACKERS UNITED

    "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." - T.S. Eliot
  • wordnoise
    1657 postsPosts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Gaming is so different to other forms of entertainment.
    Watching: sports, tv, movies, theatre, stand-up, music.
    Reading: books, magazines, articles

    Playing games. It's the only art form where the reciever needs some level of skill to fully appreciate the artists work.

    For this reason reviewers must have an acceptable level of skill when giving their critique.

    Having said that, we must be very critical of whose opinion we choose to take account of.
  • Limonstrosity
    993 postsPosts: 1,021 ✭✭✭✭
    You can still be knowledgeable at a subject, in this case--video games, and still, suck at it.

    I don't need to be a sports star to give me two cents on what I think is wrong with the Chargers. Just like how I don't expect all sports-casters in ESPN to play the game expertly that they critique on. You just need to know what you're talking about.
    XBL GT - Limonade [TF2 Rank: G74.07 | TF1 Rank: G1 Level 50]
    Origins: Limonstrosity
  • wordnoise
    1657 postsPosts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    You can still be knowledgeable at a subject, in this case--video games, and still, suck at it.

    I don't need to be a sports star to give me two cents on what I think is wrong with the Chargers. Just like how I don't expect all sports-casters in ESPN to play the game expertly that they critique on. You just need to know what you're talking about.

    Disagree. You're not playing with or against the chargers. You're just watching them. Games you play. You interact with the world. How can you critique a games control mechanics if you cannot perform them at a reasonable level?

    Edit: I'm not saying you need to be expert. I said "to a reasonable level" i.e. not sucking...
  • Limonstrosity
    993 postsPosts: 1,021 ✭✭✭✭
    wordnoise wrote: »
    You can still be knowledgeable at a subject, in this case--video games, and still, suck at it.

    I don't need to be a sports star to give me two cents on what I think is wrong with the Chargers. Just like how I don't expect all sports-casters in ESPN to play the game expertly that they critique on. You just need to know what you're talking about.

    Disagree. You're not playing with or against the chargers. You're just watching them. Games you play. You interact with the world. How can you critique a games control mechanics if you cannot perform them at a reasonable level?

    Edit: I'm not saying you need to be expert. I said "to a reasonable level" i.e. not sucking...

    Based on what exactly? What's the metric everyone's using here?

    Because in this very game, we play against noobs and l33ts alike. Just cause you suck at something or a few things doesn't get to dictate what you can and can't do for a living.

    And it's silly to say game journalists or members of your own dev team can't make a living off of what they're doing in the industry because they lack the skill to compete at a few games.

    I suck at chess and checkers, in general, does that make ill-qualified to talk about strategy in general?
    XBL GT - Limonade [TF2 Rank: G74.07 | TF1 Rank: G1 Level 50]
    Origins: Limonstrosity
  • Limonstrosity
    993 postsPosts: 1,021 ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    I'm of the mindset that if that dude loves what he's doing, then let him do him. Any rules people come up against it will just exclude talented writers and passionate thinkers... that in and of itself would be the death of the industry
    XBL GT - Limonade [TF2 Rank: G74.07 | TF1 Rank: G1 Level 50]
    Origins: Limonstrosity
  • 88online
    555 postsPosts: 563 ✭✭✭
    Keep it gaming, these other comparisons don't sit.
    If you can't play the very most fundamental and basic of games, you most certainly shouldn't be reviewing them.



    Bare in mind this guys' excuse was that he wasn't properly instructed on what to do. I wouldn't ask this guy for basic stuff; directions... let alone what his overall thoughts are on a game.
    TITANERFALL
  • Limonstrosity
    993 postsPosts: 1,021 ✭✭✭✭
    Fair enough.

    What I'm saying is that people who are terrible at games shouldn't be shunned if their craft is within the industry.

    Lots of artist, writers, and sound designers who work in the industry have different passions outside and sometimes it all doesn't fall in line with being proficient in the game they work on.

    I don't expect my marketing department to be that skilled at the game we're putting out--as long as they do their jobs efficiently and market the game. If they are, it's a plus.

    On the flipside, if the review process for a game is less than a day and someone is unable to get passed the tutorial or first level... then the review will likely reflect the trouble spot and be troublesome for the company that paid for the review to take place.

    I mean, I got through all the Dark Souls game without any problems and people were complaining about the difficulty. Clearly, some have not experienced Nintendo Hard.
    XBL GT - Limonade [TF2 Rank: G74.07 | TF1 Rank: G1 Level 50]
    Origins: Limonstrosity
  • wordnoise
    1657 postsPosts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Limonstrosity
    This isn't about stopping anyone doing reviews. This is about the validity I, personally, would place on them.

    If someone couldn't drive- It may still be relevant to consider their opinion on the look of car, the interior and what it's like to be a passenger. But I would take little notice of what they felt about what it's like to drive and the handling. I would go elsewhere for that viewpoint. Which is a pretty important aspect of the review.
    I'm of the mindset that if that dude loves what he's doing, then let him do him. Any rules people come up against it will just exclude talented writers and passionate thinkers... that in and of itself would be the death of the industry

    Again this isn't about "rules" and I'm happy to let "him do him" but surely that's more okay for a casual hobbyist. Anyone who seriously wants make a career as a games reveiwer needs to take whatever time is necessary to not suck at playing them.

    Well, any of the reviewers I'm going to pay attention to at least.
  • MonsterTRL
    404 postsPosts: 421 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    I find all this amusing because i saw it coming. The trend of overpraising franchises that mainly focused on single player narratives where most of the gameplay were button click animation or on rails shooters (ughm, looking at you uncharted) was a clear indicator.

    A lot of these journalists don't know how to play games. A crazy amount of them are BAD at what they play. There may be less than 1% of "journalists" that are above average of whatever game they are reviewing.

    I find that to be preposterous at this time when the gaming industry is such big business. I think it has maybe something to do with the little amount of money most of them get paid. What you're getting is the button of the barrel talent from the Universities where they think "ok i'll never get a job in the NY Times, and i'm not charismatic enough for my own youtube/blog/etc screw it i'll do game journalism". And so they begin to fake that they are actually gamers to begin with.
  • wordnoise
    1657 postsPosts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MonsterTRL wrote: »
    There may be less than 1% of "journalists" that are above average of whatever game they are reviewing.

    You are the most cynical person ever. "Is that glass half full or half empty"
    "Who cares. It's ugly and filthy and I'll bet the water is poisonous!"

    Don't tarnish all game reviewers. You have no info or stats to qualify that 1% statement. There are a ton of very good reviewers out there. Good at games and good at reviewing them.
  • ToMegaBorreh
    374 postsPosts: 382 ✭✭✭
    I'm rarely here but I'll drop my two cents - I don't think you should be good at games to be able to discuss them, you should be competent at playing them at some more or less mediocre level. However, claiming you need to be good is a slippery slope because it opens the gate to "you don't like it because you suck at it" arguments which are cancer.

    Not to mention, with enough knowledge and competence in video games you don't need to be very good at playing any given video game to understand how it works. Simply put, you can get very good at any video game, and that doesn't mean learning them is worth it. If you've played a couple hundred shooters you can pretty easily understand how the next one will play without mastering all the nuances of it.

    Not to mention, most people who master games do so because they enjoy them, so it's hard to imagine someone getting expert at a game he hates because why would he?

    This basicaly means that if you can dismiss criticism of the game from people who aren't good at it, and people who dislike it don't want to waste their time getting good at them, then you can effectively dismiss almost all of the critique for a video game, excluding long-time veterans doing rage quits due to minor stuff **** them off.
  • MonsterTRL
    404 postsPosts: 421 ✭✭✭
    wordnoise wrote: »
    Don't tarnish all game reviewers. You have no info or stats to qualify that 1% statement. There are a ton of very good reviewers out there. Good at games and good at reviewing them.

    What kind of point is that? why do i see this ridiculous tactic used all the time "well uhhh you don't have the statistics to prove that!" well, no, most people aren't conducting scientific investigations to the points they're trying to make. Let's be realistic here.

    I'm saying this out of pure observation. I've rarely ever seen a clip of a reviewer playing a game and thought they were really good at what they were playing. This is over a decade worth of paying attention. So, yeah i'd conclude it's pretty rare.

  • wordnoise
    1657 postsPosts: 1,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MonsterTRL wrote: »
    What kind of point is that? why do i see this ridiculous tactic used all the time "well uhhh you don't have the statistics to prove that!" well, no, most people aren't conducting scientific investigations to the points they're trying to make. Let's be realistic here.

    The reason you see this "tactic" "all the time" is because you have a habit of using arbitrarily made up numbers. You love a meaningless % to try enforce your arguments.
  • cosmicturtle333
    3156 postsPosts: 3,304 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wordnoise wrote: »
    MonsterTRL wrote: »
    What kind of point is that? why do i see this ridiculous tactic used all the time "well uhhh you don't have the statistics to prove that!" well, no, most people aren't conducting scientific investigations to the points they're trying to make. Let's be realistic here.

    The reason you see this "tactic" "all the time" is because you have a habit of using arbitrarily made up numbers. You love a meaningless % to try enforce your arguments.

    I'm 98.43% sure you're wrong wordnoise.
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  • HurtMaker3
    1498 postsPosts: 1,522 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wordnoise wrote: »
    MonsterTRL wrote: »
    What kind of point is that? why do i see this ridiculous tactic used all the time "well uhhh you don't have the statistics to prove that!" well, no, most people aren't conducting scientific investigations to the points they're trying to make. Let's be realistic here.

    The reason you see this "tactic" "all the time" is because you have a habit of using arbitrarily made up numbers. You love a meaningless % to try enforce your arguments.

    I'm 98.43% sure you're wrong wordnoise.

    This statement is 42.645% accurate, dont ask me how i came to this conclusion though
  • Magikf1ngers
    4656 postsPosts: 4,711 mod
    Now y'all just sound like Sheldon Cooper.
    Come find me on the PC side - Magikf1ngers - network SLACKERS UNITED

    "Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." - T.S. Eliot
  • MonsterTRL
    404 postsPosts: 421 ✭✭✭
    edited September 2017
    wordnoise wrote: »
    MonsterTRL wrote: »
    What kind of point is that? why do i see this ridiculous tactic used all the time "well uhhh you don't have the statistics to prove that!" well, no, most people aren't conducting scientific investigations to the points they're trying to make. Let's be realistic here.

    The reason you see this "tactic" "all the time" is because you have a habit of using arbitrarily made up numbers. You love a meaningless % to try enforce your arguments.
    @wordnoise

    Or just look at the observable evidence. Look at the shooter genre. There's a ton of horrifically played vids from journalists than there are good ones and there's close to no great ones. If i'm wrong then show me.

    We're not seeing commentary on journalists being so good at a game that no one can relate to what they're saying are we? Nope, it's the opposite lol. So it' s not on this side of the argument to prove anything considering the recent embarrassments (doom, cuphead) . It's on THAT side to show that journalists, overall, are decent at what they play.

    The continued mockery is hilarious though, i love it. This place never fails to be a beacon of mediocrity. After all the downtrodden will defend each other. "derpy derp you dont' have scientifically accurate numbers to backup these claims that we're bad derpa derp" lol.
  • 88online
    555 postsPosts: 563 ✭✭✭
    ...Uncharted is legitimately really good though and that ish requires skill on Crushing / Brutal. *shrugs* :P
    TITANERFALL
  • Jazman2k
    259 postsPosts: 321 ✭✭✭
    Do people actually believe in reviews? I don't. I usually look for the best review and the absolute worst scored review and the truth is somewhere in between. Who is someone else to say to me some game is bad or good?

    I enjoyed Rambo The Video Game a lot, actually it was very fun game to play, but it got **** on everywhere.

    I still liked it. So if i had believed some reviewers, i would have not ever experienced the game.

    So i really don't care if journalist is a good gamer or not, their review does not matter anyway. I buy the game if i find it interesting and don't if i don't find it interesting.
  • 88online wrote: »
    ...Uncharted is legitimately really good though and that ish requires skill on Crushing / Brutal. *shrugs* :P

    Exactly! On higher difficulties the Uncharted games definitely require the player to be skilled. Ironically, the PvP in Uncharted 4 requires so much more gun skill than Titanfall 2 on console.
  • Mudjestic
    30 postsPosts: 31
    The biggest problem, I think, is that this gameplay exposes the journalist as someone who's just doing it for a job. Anyone this bad at a 2D platformer is obviously not someone with even a hint of passion for video games. This journalist doesn't write about games because he likes them, he writes about games because he gets money for it.
  • laddie13
    383 postsPosts: 418 mod
    edited September 2017
    A journalist or content creator can be good at a game and I still won't trust their opinion. Are they playing it because they actually like the game or it's getting them viewers, swag, money...etc? If someone is passionate about a game, even if they aren't the best player, I'll listen to them, but in the end I don't really care what they have to say, I've been playing games long enough to know what I like.
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