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Any tips for Ronin in Frontier Defence?

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Steel_Rook
91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
For some reason, I've been trying to play and enjoy the Ronin Titan in FD, despite never, EVER playing it in PvP. I didn't even know it had the voice of Reaper from Overwatch... It's been a pretty uphill battle since the Ronin doesn't seem to have either staying power or damage output comparable to other Titans, but I've managed somehow. And yet, I can't seem to find any tips about playing it in FD - just tips for other Titans and discussions about how the Ronin sucks in FD.

So... What would you guys recommend? As a Ronin player, what should I be doing in a typical Frontier Defence match? I obviously can't hang with the Ogre Titans brawling on the front lines since I don't have the health. I obviously can't stick with the Atlas titans sniping from the sidelines. So what do I do? I mean, the Ronin is tagged as a "Roamer" Titan, at which it's pretty good, but I still need to actually DO something when I get there. Here's what I've sort of figured out so far:

*Never fight AI Titans from the front if you can help it. Either circle around to shotgun them from behind or wait around a corner to catch them as they approach. If fighting Titans in melee, never let them face you. They can punch through your sword strikes and knock you out of range. Especially important for Scorches as they can deal a lot more damage to you with their Flame Shield than you deal to them with your sword.

*Ambush AI Titans by emptying your shotgun in their weak spots, phase-dash through them while reloading, empty your shotgun in their back again, see what happens. If they're on low enough health to be doomed by a sword strike or two, do it and execute them. If not, break sight, reload and wait for them to "forget" you.

*Whenever possible, tag-team with other player Titans. The AI Titans will typically focus on what's in front of them, making them very vulnerable to being shot from behind or from the side without responding to it. The Ronin is almost uniquely equipped with enough mobility to put itself in a position to exploit that.

*Abuse the Sword Core as much as possible. At the best of times, the Ronin isn't particularly powerful. However, the Sword Core is **** powerful if you can maintain it. Get the skill which extends (read: resets) Sword Core cooldown for scoring a hit. Abuse the **** out of your near-infinite dashes during Sword Core, too, in order to cover ground and find more AI Titans to feed to your Sword Core.

*Act like an opportunistic coward. Never, ever pick a fair fight. If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, phase and disengage. Pick a different fight. Always keep an eye on the map, look for Titan columns you can strike from behind. Run towards those and engage them early. Do what you can until you run out of decent cover, then disengage and look for something else to fight. What you excell at is very limited, make sure you're always in situations where you can excel.

Even with the above, though, I rarely feel like I'm contributing as much as I could be. I mean... OK, I can usually get first place on Combat Score unless we have a Scorch spawn-camping the AI Titans on the Canal map, but it still feels like I spend an inordinately high amount of time running from point to point as opposed to fighting. Whenever I do get into a fight, it can be really touch-and-go. Sometimes I can rip AI Titans to shred with the Broadsword, sometimes they seem to have supernatural aim and timing, knocking me off-target with melee and dealing excessive damage with their guns. I still can't quite figure out why the same tactic works some times but not other, seemingly identical times. It's why I'm hoping for anyone with developed strategies for the Ronin.

Comments

  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    I've experience similar things.

    Titan physics is weird. Light titans have lower mass so when forces from enemy melee and your dashes combine it can cause weird behaviour. For example if you dash backwards at the same time a foe punches you, you go flying backward as a light weight titan. Additionally, the game has no air drag, so if you are not touching the ground friction won't slow you down. This means, if you get 'cannoned' off of a hill, then you'll literally fly as a light titan.

    This can be exploited with ronin to 'super dash', at places on the map you can combine phase dash and regular dash together at the same time to cannon yourself farther. But the weird physics also causes issues with his melee focused game play. AI titans punch you when close, so if you get hit, they can knock you out of melee range; making playing as him rather difficult. A habit I see is that people generally dash forward at the target they are going to melee to increase chances of the attack connecting.

    I agree with your * tips, but I've found that E-smoke really helps ronin out. If you use smoke on a AI titan it stops attacking because it can't see anything. And ronin can then arc wave the foe in the smoke so it suffers the duration of the attack. Unfortunately, since smokes are earned in-between cores, smoke refreshing can be few and fair between; and get larger upon aegis rank 20 (sword core extension). So the capacity to exploit this trick is limited in FD.

    I wish there was something in the game that allowed ronin or titans to regenerate E-smoke over-time; I find they gel with his ability set. Maybe extra countermeasure could be tweaked; or maybe a ronin aegis rank. Maybe phase dash could create a smoke cloud on re-appearance?

    I find Ronin's job in FD is to kill reapers and the stalkers, since his abilities can slice them real quick. Then you're job is to hunt mortar titans, which you can then exploit for batteries by dis-embarking on them. This way you rodeo while auto ronin melee's, then you can jump back into ronin, and get core faster. Mortar titans have low health (only two health bars) so it's a meta that people have yet to clue to. After this, your job is to arc wave and smoke foes so that allies can help burst them down.

    Consequently, I think thunderstorm is the best kit for FD because you get support points for enemies you stun with it. This means ronin is basically a mobile regenerating arc trap! So if you work with allies you can stall attackers in choke points and under cross fire. Saves cash for turrets (but the FD power-ups aren't that great / interesting)

    Since ronin is the best nuking titan, running nuke eject in FD is both a blessing and curse. You can kill foes quickly but the foes you killed prevent your team and yourself from recovering titans quickly / stealing batteries. Plus you can buy nuke rodeos which do grant titan meter for kills. I find nukes more a curse since they go against the grain of team play.

    Probably over-core is best for FD. Get E-smoke immediately on core end! So helps with bugging out and supplementing damage to earn core again. But I haven't don the math; since you can double stack smokes for extra damage. Is one now worth two latter on. Unfortunately, this is thrown out the window when you account for allies competing against you. i.e. damage they deal is damage you can't deal to earn your core.

    Despite all this I do find Ronin rather fun in FD. I think most of the issues with the mode is lack of HUD elements that assist with team coordination. Like knowing who has core, when a friend is rodeoing a enemy for a batter, people not exploiting battery mechanics due to the time investment and risk, etc.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Having finally earned the last Aegis upgrade, it seems to me like the Ronin is intended to be played as a one-trick pony with the Sword Core. The final upgrade doubles Sword Core duration and gtants I believe 25% shield per hit. Combine this with the ability to gain Sword Core duration by scoring Titan Kills and the Ronin becomes absolutely absurd. I've been able to blast through dozens of AI Titans without taking any health damage or worrying about batteries whatsoever. The best part is this works even when the AI Titans aren't all clumped up together in a single column. While in Sword Core, the Ronin has absolutely absurd mobility, sort of reminiscent of the Titanfall 1 Dash Core. Near-infinite regular dashes combined with absolutely massive Phase Dashes means I can cross entire maps in seconds, especially larger, more open ones. If there are AI Titans anywhere on the map, I can usually get to them with half a Sword Core left and nearly full shield.

    I've personally found Electric Smoke to be less useful the more Aegis levels I gain on the Ronin. The very long Phase Dash makes it harder to just dash through AI Titans and strike them from behind as it puts me SO far from them at the end of it and the Electric Smoke itself does fairly little damage. It's useful to keep the AI Titans from punching me because they can't track me in the smoke, but I find it's just as useful if not more so to just swipe at them with Sword Core. If I can land hits on multiple Titans at the same time, I can usually out-tank even a Scorch's Fire Shield. Since Sword Core melee also staggers the AI Titans (I presume that's not the case with player Titans, but that's besides the point), I can kill them in significant safety if I just catch them from behind. Or I can fight them from the front, tank their damage on my shields and hold my ground until Titans later in the column bunch up and give me double and triple hits.

    Unlike all the other Titans I've played, the Ronin REALLY doesn't come into its own in Frontier Defence until you grab its final Aegis Upgrade. I can play a Legion or a Scorch or a North Star and still feel reasonably effective even at Aegis Level 0. An Aegis Level 0 Ronin, by contrast, just feels like it doesn't belong. A fully-levelled one, though, is INSANE. Since making this post, I've managed to pull off a number of absolutely silly games. Stuff like ending the War Games map with 7000+ Combat Score while everyone else had ~1000, just because I managed to kill nearly all the AI Titans myself. I wasn't even trying to kill-steal, I was just doing my level best to keep the Sword Core going. If that meant crossing the entire map length-wise, then that was doable.

    I guess my take-away from this is that the Ronin in Frontier Defence is about perpetual motion. Get that Sword Core and make it last as long as possible. The only time you shouldn't be in Sword Core is when AI Titans aren't on the map at all. I'll play a few more games and see if I can append the tips in the OP.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    After quite a few games in the Ronin easily getting double the Combat Score of the next player over, I have a rough idea of how that Titan is supposed to be played. What I found works best is to focus your build entirely on the Sword Core, with the 20% Core Titan Kit and the extra Sword Core time Ronin Kit. You're essentially going to be playing a Jekyll and Hyde character.

    With your Sword Core inactive, you're a weak, cowardly opportunist who never likes a fair fight and runs away from any sign of danger. As a coward, your primary - nay, your ONLY goal - is to build up to full Core. Without it, your Ronin is objectively the weakest of all the Titans. You CAN still contribute quite a bit, but you're generally going to be of limited use to your team and will spend most of your time running to places instead of fighting. Everything I said in the OP applies. Never pick a fair fight, always disengage as soon as you start taking damage, don't be afraid to abandon your team-mates and look for a more favourable fight. Your goal is to harass and build up Core Meter.

    With your Sword Core active, you're an unstoppable monster. You can win a one-on-one fight with any AI Titan without much issue, you can keep your shield constantly toppped up, you can avoid taking any health damage and you can rip through Titan columns like they're made of tissue paper. You're also going to be kill-stealing from your team-mates a LOT. You need those Titan kills to feed your Sword Core, they generally don't. You're also going to be in a constant, pell-meld rush. You need to be fighting something constantly, preferably AI Titans. If you're not fighting AI Titans, abandon what you're doing and go find some. Look at the map, pick the closest AI Titan icon and get to it as fast as you can. Remember - you have near infinite dashes and a very long-range Phase Dash. Use them and abuse them. No price is too high if you can get into the thick of it.

    As a Sword Core Ronin, you're exceptionally tough, but you can still die very quickly. Beware of Scorches, they can do severe damage to you far in excess of what you can out-tank with the Sword Core shield regen. Don't fight them head-on. Either stun then with the Arc Wave or Phase Dash behind them. If you can catch a Scorch from behind, you can usually keep him stun-locked until he dies, which is approximately 5 melee attacks. Also beware of Arc Titans. They can strip your shield far faster than you can regenerate it, and so they'll deal significant permanent damage. Either avoid them entirely or dive them aggressively. Two melee attacks are usually enough to drop their Arc Field, and they're lunch after that.

    Keep a cool head around Nuclear Titans. Their Nuclear Ejection is both pretty slow and very easy to dodge with the tools you have available. Ideally, you want to trigger multiple Nuke Titans at once to cut down on the number of times you need to retreat. From when a Nuke Titan pops to when it actually blows, you have time enough for three extra swings. Don't worry about running away, either. Your Phase Dash makes you completely invulnerable to their ejection. As long as you trigger it a split second before they blow, you're home free. Just make sure you actually dash in any direction and don't phase in place. Nuclear Ejection explosions deal about 5 ticks of damage over the span of over a second, so you can take residual damage even after they're gone.

    The moment your Sword Core expires, IMMEDIATELY revert to being a coward. If you're in a fight with multiple AI Titans whom you couldn't kill fast enough, disengage immediately. You're going to take damage that you can't recover from if you stick it out. If you dropped out in the middle of a mad dash to reach more AI Titans to feed your core, take a moment to stop, breathe and remember that you're not an unstoppable beast any more. You don't want to hold onto that same berserker mindset and accidentally diving a full-health Scorch. Also make a mental note that you no longer have infinite dashes. It's all too easy to get yourself into trouble thinking you can just dash out of it only to realise both your regular dashes and your Phase Dashes are on cooldown.

    Basically, you want to skulk around the sidelines picking out targets of opportunity until you build up your Sword Core then activate that and try to maintain it until the end of the wave, or at least as long as possible. In its base form, the Ronin simply isn't competitive with the rest of the Titans. In its Super Saiyan form, it easily outclasses every other Titan by a significant margin. Play your cards right and you can inflict shocking amounts of carnage on the enemy, as well as probably **** off your own team-mates by constantly stealing their kills :)
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    In my mind though I like to play with the team, so annoying people with kill stealing so that they can't earn titans / cores and rodeo targets easily isn't something I aspire too become; even if the game gives me a high score for the behaviour. It contributes to Ronin stigma.

    Score doesn't really mean anything. You get combat for kills and support for specific actions like turret repair, ally batteries, power up functions, and some titan abilities give support score. Typically high scoring players have low scoring allies; so I find games where everyone has similar scores are more enjoyable for everyone. Doesn't matter whose 1st, just as long as we all win and get the survival feat merits (flawless, no retires, unique titans, difficulty, etc).

    So a more team friendly way to play ronin (particularly with randoms) is to focus on stunning and dooming but not killing titans to assist allies. This allows for easier pilots battery harvesting / battery thief monarchs gaining power. It also lets monarch with battery thief grow faster so they can help out more. Sword core can help with this, and if you use highlander you don't need to kill all titans you doom, just a couple to refresh the core when needed.

    Ronin can be rather competent without sword core because the lead wall in crit spots does better DPS than sword; so it's useful for weakening scorches and arc titans. It also melts nukes. I have no issue playing aggressively without core due to his dashes and smoke; only time's I have issue is when the physics causes strange behaviour if I dash and an explosive force hits me.

    So there is an issue of being too effective in FD I'm afraid...
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    Without the Sword Core, I see genuinely no reason to even bother with the Ronin. It's not a "support" Titan like the Monarch, and it's honestly not very good at doing much that other Titans can't do better and easier. It's telling the Ronin gets no Aegis abilities related to Electronic Smoke like the Monarch does. All of its abilities are focused around either the sword or its mobility. Seems to me it's intended to be played in a hyper-aggressive, constant-swor-core fashion. Without it, the Ronin simply doesn't have enough to offer to the team.

    As to "battery theft" - nobody ever bothers in Random games, and it's not because I'm playing the Ronin. Most people stay with their Titans and buy batteries between waves. I might be denying them Cores by kill-stealing, but that's about it. Plus, dead AI Titans are dead. Doesn't matter who killed them. I wasn't bragging about high scores, I was merely explaining that the Ronin is powerful enough to kill essentially all the AI Titans by itself if given the chance. Allies generally help by delaying the enemy Titans so I can get to them before they reach the core, as well as causing them to bunch up for multi-hits with the sword.

    I simply fail to see why you'd pick an "assassin" style Titan and try to play it as "support" in the first place. I'm sure you can, I just don't see why you wouldn't pick something that's actually good at providing Support like the Tone or the Ion.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    @Steel_Rook

    Ronin's support style is very unique. So the term 'support' in the game is too general I find and has different connotations depending on what games you play. Monarch's support is different from tone's is different from Ion's, etc.

    The support ronin performs that other titans cannot is being a controllable, highly mobile, and faster recharging arc trap. Arc wave is really good at slowing foes to assist DPS and AoE allies abilities be more effective; way more so than tether trap. Tether trap is about delaying single targets; arc wave is about delaying lanes of targets. Arc wave also disables titan defenses so can save allies on ammo cost to burn through the defense. A good arc waving ronin cuts down the need for arc traps, so the team can save up and utilize more expensive and situational power-ups like turrets and batteries to assist foes recover titans between rounds. A single turret by it's self easily goes down, but two turrets reinforce each-other and become a much stronger defense.

    The other thing ronin excels at is assassinating special targets like reapers, snipers, and mortars. He's got the speed to get to them, and he has the burst damage to burn through their low health quicker than other titans. No other titan can kill reapers and stalkers as easily as ronin can. So his job is culling the herd of pests while allies focus on the big game.

    So playing Ronin in a sword core to kill everything style is actually harming the team more than helping. Batteries are one facet, but another major one is cash flow. You can earn too much cash, which robs allies of cash; thus can cause issues with purchases, and limits the capacity for allies to earn cash in latter rounds. The only way to correct this is for the ronin to donate their cash; but donating cash in public games doesn't notify players theirs cash in the bank; and those allies have probably already bought two arc traps because the didn't have an extra 200 for a turret. So donating late is a waste.

    So as said before, there is a problem with 'kill everything with sword core'. Ronin's job is to kill the 'right' targets, and help others kill the rest.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    So as said before, there is a problem with 'kill everything with sword core'. Ronin's job is to kill the 'right' targets, and help others kill the rest.

    I strongly disagree. If people don't wait and check for donations, that's their fault. If people don't ask for donations, that's their fault. A Ronin with a Sword Core is easily the most powerful Titan in terms of sheer combat potential, able to chew through entire lanes packed with Titans without ever losing shields, then swap side quickly and do it all over again. If a Titan can kill all the things, then I fail to see why it shouldn't kill all the things. Yes, it steals kills and money and batteries from other players, but that's their problem - not mine. As long as the Core doesn't lose shields during a wave, then the can look after themselves.

    You're free to play your Ronin however you like, but my experience shows that that's far from an efficient use of the tools you're given. My experience with the Titan - both playing it and teaming with it - is pretty clear on the subject. Either the Ronin Pilot abuses the **** out of the Sword Core and thus "carries" the game, or else he doesn't and fails to contribute much of substance.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    @Steel_Rook

    But remember you're playing with four other people. So if you try to do the job of three players, when you're team is composed of other combat focused titans, then you're not being very efficient. You're over-working, so allies are under-worked; so mistakes are more costly and harder to recover from. It's the all eggs in one basket problem.

    What's better:
    • sustaining one long highlander core
    • earning multiple sword cores and using them at the right time.

    Additionally, sustaining core also prevents allies from earning their core.

    So what's better
    • one titan having a really long core
    • multiple titans earning multiple cores?

    Highlander core in FD is an illusion of success. It's definitely fun to play that way but you don't need to in-order to win if you play with your team's strengths.

    So saying this:
    Steel_Rook wrote:
    Yes, it steals kills and money and batteries from other players, but that's their problem - not mine.

    Is false. There problems are your problems, because the game is cooperative.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    @Steel_Rook

    You're not being efficient if you're doing the job of three titans and are dependent upon sustaining core. You're overworking, they're under-worked; mistakes become more costly and less easily to recover from. If your carry falls then game over.

    I've been playing Ronin allot in FD and I find the supportive style (mobile arc wave trapper & special target assassin) makes the team win more games; whereas, when I see ronins that go for the sword core kills everything style, we end up having a miserable wave 3, 4, or 5; because the rest of the team is under-powered, has no core, has no money, has not defenses.

    So saying this:
    Steel_Rook wrote:
    Yes, it steals kills and money and batteries from other players, but that's their problem - not mine. As long as the Core doesn't lose shields during a wave, then the can look after themselves.

    Goes against the cooperative intention of the FD mode. Your teammates problems are your problems. Help your team do their jobs well, and the mode is more fun for everyone.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    Goes against the cooperative intention of the FD mode. Your teammates problems are your problems. Help your team do their jobs well, and the mode is more fun for everyone.

    The "cooperative nature of Frontier Defence" goes only so far. Not everybody's job is team support. In MMO terms, you can't have a team of all Healers. You need at least one if not several DPS. Ronin is easily the best DPS in the game. If you're going to play Support, there are better Titans for it.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Steel_Rook wrote: »
    The "cooperative nature of Frontier Defence" goes only so far. Not everybody's job is team support. In MMO terms, you can't have a team of all Healers. You need at least one if not several DPS. Ronin is easily the best DPS in the game. If you're going to play Support, there are better Titans for it.

    @Steel_Rook Ronin's a burst damage dealer not a DPS titan. If you factor in that he can only attack single titans at a time (but can kill multiple minions with a sword swing), and most of his attacks have a delay between strikes; his DPS potential is really low (which is why I like using smokes as a DPS dot to supplement this weakness).

    So trying to play ronin as a tank I find really silly. He's better off running the map killing targets that the rest of the team will have difficulty with; and then assisting allies between targets by arc waving and shot-gunning. He has the speed and dashes to do this.

    Yet, Ronin tanks is something I find very prevalent in the game; and it causes teams to lose matches. A scorch / legion cannot do the job of a ronin; they're too slow.

    I find this is why Ronin has such stigma. People look at his design and abilities and think "he's a warrior", when he's really an rouge. And rouges are about weakening enemy defenses for the rest of the party, and sneak attacking high threat targets to kill them before they become a problem (allowing the party to focus on more important tasks that they are good at).
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    @Steel_Rook Ronin's a burst damage dealer not a DPS titan. If you factor in that he can only attack single titans at a time (but can kill multiple minions with a sword swing), and most of his attacks have a delay between strikes; his DPS potential is really low (which is why I like using smokes as a DPS dot to supplement this weakness).

    The Ronin is a perfectly fine DPS Titan with Sword Core active, that's my point. Maybe not literally, in the sense that he doesn't deal DOT with his sword attacks, but he is "DPS" in the MMO sense of it. He's your primary and best damage dealer by far. Better than Legion, better than Scorch, better than anyone else. As long as Sword Core is active, you have a **** overpowered Titan on your team, who's better at offence AND better at defence than any other Titan. That's a fact.
    I find this is why Ronin has such stigma. People look at his design and abilities and think "he's a warrior", when he's really an rouge. And rouges are about weakening enemy defenses for the rest of the party, and sneak attacking high threat targets to kill them before they become a problem (allowing the party to focus on more important tasks that they are good at).

    I'm not sure where you're getting your definition of what a Rogue is, but the role of a Rogue definitely isn't to "weaken" enemies. In D&D terms, their role is - again - DPS. Flank enemies that other people are already fighting, get those backstabs, deal massive damage, get the kill shot. I'm not even sure what to call this role you've invented for the Ronin, but it's neither Assassin nor Rogue. It's more along the lines of Fire Support, something that Tone and Ion are typically good at. Tone especially is much better at clearing infantry and weakening Titans for other players to take out and he can do this at extreme ranges with some luck and a good eye.

    Honestly, the way you describe the Ronin is a bit like trying to convince me that the North Star should focus on smoke and melee. I mean it CAN, but why bother when other Titans exist which can do it better? Why not focus on what your Titan is actually good at, as opposed to trying to play against type and fill a role that's frankly not really all that necessary in the first place?
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    @Steel_Rook

    The problem with DPS in the context your using it in is that the average ignores how the damage is distributed over time. Additionally, the duration of your measurement matters and can cause you to get different DPS scores when you take the average; by this I mean you need to factor in reloads and cool-downs. Knowing when damage is actually dealt greatly influences game-play strategies, and actual time to kill. The way I'm using the term DPS titan previously is that the titan has abilities that actually dealing damage every second like ion and scorch.

    A basic example is:

    Hero A (DPS titan) does 10 dmg every 1 sec for 5 seconds. DPS = 10
    Hero B (Burst titan) does 50 dmg for 1 second then 0 for 4 seconds. DPS = 10

    If a foe has 75 hp and 1 dmg costs target 1 hp. The average TTK for both heroes is 7.5 seconds, but...

    Hero A will kill foe in 8 seconds with +5 dmg overkill
    Hero B will kill foe in 6 seconds with +25 damage overkill

    If another foe has 110 hp then TTK = 11 seconds, but...

    Hero A will kill foe in 11 seconds with no overkill
    Hero B will kill foe in 11 seconds with +40 overkill.

    So it's a time vs damage efficiency trade off. Hero B attacks on the 1st and 6th second to total 100 dmg, but needs to wait another 5 seconds before they can kill a 10 hp foe. They waste 90% of their damage on the 11th second attack and must wait another 5 seconds before they can attack again.

    It would be better to have Hero A kill this target at this current time if possible.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2017
    @Steel_Rook

    I wrote a better politer post but the forum forgot it when I edited it. Really annoying when that happens. So sorry in advance for the terseness.

    So firstly, your using the DPS statistic incorrectly. I agree Ronin is very fast at killing targets but it's not due to his overall DPS, it's due to his ability to burst high damage for a short duration. So DPS really is a useful statistic only if the distribution of damage is consistent over time.

    To demonstrate consider 10 dmg every second over 5 seconds ( Titan A ) vs 50 damage every 5 seconds ( Titan B ). Both DPS = 10, but the distribution is important because what you gain in time of kill you lose in damage efficiency (i.e. overkill damage).

    Say a foe has 75 hp so both titans have 7.5 s TTK. Titan A will kill the foe latter at 8s with 5 dmg overkill, while Hero B will kill the foe in 6s with 25 dmg overkill.

    Say another foe has 110 hp. Titan A and B will both kill it in 11 seconds, but A won't have any overkill damage, whereas B will have 40 dmg overkill. So B attacks on the 1st and 6th second totaling 100 dmg, then has to wait another 5s to attack a 10 hp target on the 11th second. It would be more efficient to have A kill this 10 hp target than wasting B's time limited attack rate just to deal 10 dmg.

    Hence my point about a 'supportive' not a 'support' ronin. A supportive Ronin's first priority is to hunt down 'pests' such as mortar titans, stalkers, reapers that other titans struggle with. For arc and scorch foes you let allies weaken them so you can kill them safely; and you help them do this by arc and shotgun at mid range. When there are no special targets to deal with, you reinforce a ally in their lane, by dealing damage and arcing with a focus on disruption of enemy defenses, not killing; you let DPS titan allies kill weakened foes and allow them opportunity to earn their cores by dealing damage. Since ronin deals high damage he can earn his core quickly by draining nuke titans of health; then use core to hunt down priority targets or 'thin the herd' (i.e. distribute damage across several high health targets) to assist a ally in their lane and avoid overkill wastage. Since you're basically acting like a super aggressive arc trap with arc wave when reinforcing an ally, you reduce the need for buying them; allowing allies to buy better upgrades like turrets (where one turret goes down, two stay alive); so I generally donate most of my cash to allies so we can get early turrets up. Playing this way, allies have a good time, and we win most matches; and I rarely lose my ronin (except in mistakes where nuke titans I am blind to). Score is generally fairly distributed by typically ~2-3k for 1st (Ronin most times) and 2nd, with ~1k for 3rd and 4th.

    So the sword core to kill everything style goes against team play. Ronin's try to tank to gain opportunity for core, thus muscle out other titans from their most effective roles. Trying to loop core with highlander can work against you because damage you deal during core is damage you can't deal to earn it again: meaning it makes you priorities killing multiple low health targets quickly to sustain. This also works for ally cores. It's better to thin the herd to allow an ION Laser to cull the conga line, than it is for an ION to laser a single full health nuke titan to near doom state (inefficient core). If you kill everything indiscriminately, you rob allies of easy core earning and using opportunities. Also, lack of distributing kills as said causes cash flow economic failure, and you get poor defense purchases. So playing this way is not good nor efficient.

    The really annoying thing about the game is how the scoring system makes this sword core kills everything appear to be the best strategy. A ronin getting 8k while the rest of the team are 500-100, makes the ronin think it's the team not them for the lose. It's possible to win with this score, but usually with no retries and on lower difficulties, so you miss out on victory merits you'd have earned easily if you played in a team supportive style. Work with the team and thrive; compete against allies and fumble.

    The only time I like highlander is LTS because the mode facilitates it's awesomeness. You earn it during the round, wait till everyone is weak near round end, and then go to work, running the map like a psycho to kill three doom foes distributed across the map. You can win round's you'd otherwise lose not using this kit in LTS.

    Additionally, I also use extra-countermeasure in LTS due to the time to kill vs damage efficiency. Why risk two melee strikes, when I can pop smoke and arc wave, wait for the low health titan to doom due the dot, and then execute them?

    In FD I like over core because it garuntees smoke on core end, and 20% core for dealing no damage means allies have more opportunity to earn core by dealing damage. For kit I like thunderstorm because having two arc waves means you can reinforce lanes better due to it's defense destroying and enemy stunning effects. Also aegis ranks doesn't buff wave so taking the kit that does since my other abilities are buffed up makes more sense to me than highlander.

    So this is what I mean about the ronin is a rouge not warrior statement. Consider games with a basic warrior, wizard, rouge system. Often the rouge's job is to kill the enemy wizard before they can harm your party's warrior. When the wizard is dead, the rouge can assist the warrior by infrequent back stabs attacks, and stun / support talents. Sound familiar? So I get your confusion, depends upon the game's you've played in the past.

    Hence why I find the "support', 'roamer', 'offense / support' titan role tips very vague and potentially confusing to causal players.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    So firstly, your using the DPS statistic incorrectly. I agree Ronin is very fast at killing targets but it's not due to his overall DPS, it's due to his ability to burst high damage for a short duration. So DPS really is a useful statistic only if the distribution of damage is consistent over time.

    For the Ronin, it is - that's my whole point. A fully-upgraded Ronin in Frontier Defence can, during most waves, maintain their Sword Core indefinitely. This, combined with simply unparallelled mobility, allows to Ronin to attack nearly constantly for a steady stream of damage. Granted, that damage comes in big chunks, but rarely so big that Titans lack the health to accommodate it. In my experience a Sword Core Ronin can take down a Nuke Titan's shield in one swing, blast through Ogre health in four swings and kill any doomed Titan in one swing. The Ronin can also hit multiple Titans with the same sword swing if they're close enough, as hit detection for it is pretty generous.

    What that means is a Ronin can pump out consistent, stable DPS as long as AI Titans exist anywhere on the map and as long as his Sword Core is active. The only other Titan capable of anywhere near the same kind of sustained DPS is the Legion due to his large magazine and Aegis upgrade which allows for penetrating shots. Even then, however, the Legion can only shoot what he has line of sight of. That works when a column of AI Titans is slowly waddling down a lane, not so much when they spawn across the map. The Ronin, by contrast, can attack anything nearly anywhere on the map due to his high mobility.

    All of this is academic, however. The simple fact of the matter is the Ronin can deal substantially more damage in a given period of time than the rest of his team combined even accounting for their Cores, at least against Titans. Tone still reigns supreme at dealing with Infantry. I'm not exaggerating, by the way. A well-played Ronin can hold an entire packed front all by himself with no assistance as long as that Ronin can maintain Sword Core. The problem is the game almost never provides a high enough density of Titans to sustain the Ronin's Sword Core naturally, thus migrating with AI Titan Spawns is necessary.

    And yes, I'm aware of damage granularity. Aside from some cores and maybe the Northstar Railgun, it really isn't an issue in this game, at least not in Frontier Defence.
    Hence my point about a 'supportive' not a 'support' ronin. A supportive Ronin's first priority is to hunt down 'pests' such as mortar titans, stalkers, reapers that other titans struggle with. For arc and scorch foes you let allies weaken them so you can kill them safely; and you help them do this by arc and shotgun at mid range.

    Couple of things here. First of all, there's no reason a Sword Core Ronin can't do what you're suggesting and STILL provide heavy damage anyway. I generally try to pick on Titans nobody else is fighting just as a matter of course, since they're easiest to deal with, but there's a finite amount of those. Once they're dead, I have a full Sword Core and no uncontested Titans. What do I do then? Let it drop intentionally? Because I that's not an acceptable practice, as far as I'm concerned.

    Secondly, neither Arc Titans nor Scorches are scary once I have Blademaster. Dangerous, yes, but unless I completely fumble my initial attack, nothing to worry about. Scorches are easy to stagger from behind such that they don't get to return fire, and what return fire they have to offer I can offset with Blademaster. Arcs are substantially more dangerous as they're harder to out-tank, but they're also very fragile and easy to doom, which shuts down their Arc field. All it usually takes is an Arc Wave and a couple of sword swings. If I start out with full shield - which isn't hard - I can usually take them out without losing much of any permanent health. Granted, fighting multiple at a time is a non-starter and that does happen, but in that case I'd simply either fight other AI Titans in the area or disengage completely and go somewhere else. I don't HAVE a shotgun available during Sword Core and I'm not about to sit on my hands for 20 seconds waiting for it to drop.
    So the sword core to kill everything style goes against team play. Ronin's try to tank to gain opportunity for core, thus muscle out other titans from their most effective roles. Trying to loop core with highlander can work against you because damage you deal during core is damage you can't deal to earn it again: meaning it makes you priorities killing multiple low health targets quickly to sustain.

    That's assuming that sustaining Sword Core is my only priority, which it isn't. My priority during Sword Core is to deal as much damage as I'm capable of and kill or help kill as many AI Titans as is reasonable. Unless I'm REALLY low on Sword Core, I'm not going to go after low-health enemies because there's no point. When I can kill most Titans in three swings and gain something like 10 seconds' worth of Sword Core off of each one, I don't exactly need to worry. That's only an issue once a group of AI Titans gets wiped and I then need to cover substantial ground to find more AI Titans before my Sword Core expires. That's when I'll probably pounce on a couple of low-health or doomed Titans just to stabilise my core, at which point I'll focus on heavier targets that I don't feel my team-mates can burst down quickly. I mean, eventually I'll take swings at anything and everything that's left kicking around, but there's no real point in prioritising weak targets when my strength is extreme burst damage. I'm not trying to hoard all the kills so much as I'm trying to deal damage.
    The really annoying thing about the game is how the scoring system makes this sword core kills everything appear to be the best strategy. A ronin getting 8k while the rest of the team are 500-100, makes the ronin think it's the team not them for the lose. It's possible to win with this score, but usually with no retries and on lower difficulties, so you miss out on victory merits you'd have earned easily if you played in a team supportive style. Work with the team and thrive; compete against allies and fumble.

    "Score" is completely irrelevant. Everyone gets the same rewards at match end regardless of what they did. As long as we can keep the Harvester safe, everybody wins equally, even if I walked away with 80% of the combined total score. My experience with the Ronin is the complete opposite of yours, too. A Ronin who manages to cull the majority of the Titans has much higher success at keeping the Harvester's shields from going down than a Ronin piddling about trying to be useful. Unless thee shield gets taken down by Plasma Drones or outright Infantry, that is, but that's why you have someone at the Harvester protecting it from low-intensity threats. What the Ronin helps prevent, however, is 12 Titans shooting at the Harvester with half the team dead trying to keep it alive. I've yet to have that happen to my Ronin, for the simple fact that those Titans die long before they reach the Harvester in the first place.
    So this is what I mean about the ronin is a rouge not warrior statement. Consider games with a basic warrior, wizard, rouge system. Often the rouge's job is to kill the enemy wizard before they can harm your party's warrior. When the wizard is dead, the rouge can assist the warrior by infrequent back stabs attacks, and stun / support talents. Sound familiar? So I get your confusion, depends upon the game's you've played in the past.

    No, because that's not how it works in D&D and really not how it works in any well-designed RPG. Rogues aren't snipers and generally don't have "infrequent" attacks. Especially in the D&D conga line of death, they act like Fighters with less armour and more DPS thanks to the backstabs. I don't know enough about D&D to commont on "stun/support talents," but none of the Rogue-style classes I've played in cRPGs have ever focused on that, outside of optional talents or gear that everybody else has access to. Indeed, I'm not sure where you're getting your "infrequent" comments from, because there's nothing "infrequent" about Rogues, or indeed the Ronin. The Northstar's damage is far more "infrequent." ****, the Scorch's damage is far more infrequent. Unless we're comparing with a non-Sword-Core Ronin, of course, in which case yeah - their damage is "infrequent" in the sense that it sucks outside of specific circumstances.

    Honestly, the only Rogue-style class I've ever seen which worked like you describe was Stalkers in the MMO City of Heroes. Cryptic were so afraid of making them overpowered in PvP that they front-loaded the majority of their damage into a slow, interruptible Assassin's Strike attack on a long cooldown. Surprising nobody, they ended up sucking hard in PvE, which was the game's primary and pretty much only real focus. They sucked so hard that they ended up getting several rounds of unmitigated buffs, until they were finally sort-of fixed by the game's Sunset by turning them effectively into Scrappers (that game's "Fighters") with slightly less health and base damage but with about four separate types of highly-consistent critical hits for massive spike damage.

    Moreover, there's no "Wizard" class Titan in Titanfall 2. Maybe you can sort of count Mortar Titans, but the only time they're a real issue is War Games due to the **** design of that map. The only other one I would count as a "Wizard" are Arc Titans since they're about the most dangerous to the core, and Ronins aren't good at fighting those with or without Sword Core. I just don't see how you can keep insisting that every Titan has a role and should play to their strengths when you're actively advocating for deliberately ignoring the Ronin's one primary strength.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    @Steel_Rook

    Tonight I've just played three games and in each game there was a nuke highlander ronin. One of them I had two highlander ronins. We lost each game at wave 3 or 4 consistently.

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/OdysseyHome/video/35448979

    So they are tanking the lane, but Davis says "Oh no we got mortar titans down there", but both are so focus on earning and sustaining their cores for damage output that they don't react to it. My other ally random player left the game.

    So my point about Ronin that I'm trying to explain is that this prevalent behaviour destroys the game for other players. The mode is about each player killing the right targets. For Ronin it's mortar titans, sniper tones, reapers, and stalkers. The other targets other titan classes can kill more efficiently.

    So when you learn the spawns, you learn you don't need to loop core. Damage you deal in core is damage that can't be dealt to earn it back; and damage dealt with core is damage allies can deal to earn their cores. Monarch suffers greatly due to this, she can't compete with Ronin's damage, since she's a support; meaning she can't earn smokes or upgrades; and insult to injury is that any upgrades she does manage to earn, she loses all of them when the harvester is destroyed.

    In a match where ronins earn 3k score for killing everything a monarch typically only gets 700, because she gets stuck on reaper duty. Her XO guns sucks at killing reapers quickly. Ronin two melee. Monarch a whole clip; maybe some rockets. Ronin 2 seconds. Monarch 10 seconds.

    So please, please just try my tips. What can it hurt? Hunt special targets. When no targets are present, help an ally struggling to hold their lane by disrupting their defenses; carving health from foes to facilitate ally cores to multi-kill, Then moving on to the next most important target (hunting or other ally). When I play this way, I get 3-2k score (mostly due to the highest minion and reaper kills), and we win. When Ronin's get bloodthirsty they get 4-8k score and the team loses.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    So they are tanking the lane, but Davis says "Oh no we got mortar titans down there", but both are so focus on earning and sustaining their cores for damage output that they don't react to it. My other ally random player left the game.

    Err... That's not the fault of the Sword Core, it's the fault of a **** player not to put too fine a point on it. I fully agree that Mortar Titans are a Ronin's duty, but any Ronin worth his salt will finish his current kill so as to top-up his core, then disengage and hunt the Mortar Titan. At worst, a greedy Ronin might want to finish up the current Titan column before heading off to the Mortar Titans. Mobility is a Ronin's asset especially during Sword Core, so not using it is ****. You fight stuff other people are already fighting if there's nothing else on the map TO fight. Trying to fight Nuclear Titans or duel with Scorches when Mortar Titans are barraging the Harvester or an entire flank is left undefended is **** and the fault of the player, not the fault of the Titan.

    You can just as well lambast a Scorch for sitting at the AI Titans' spawn waiting for the ceiling to fall while entire Titan Columns are heading for the Harvester unopposed. Or you can easily criticise pretty much any player who will cross the map trying to kill all the things personally instead of playing the objective. That's a PEBKAC issue.
    So please, please just try my tips. What can it hurt? Hunt special targets. When no targets are present, help an ally struggling to hold their lane by disrupting their defenses; carving health from foes to facilitate ally cores to multi-kill, Then moving on to the next most important target (hunting or other ally). When I play this way, I get 3-2k score (mostly due to the highest minion and reaper kills), and we win. When Ronin's get bloodthirsty they get 4-8k score and the team loses.

    What would be the point? I could play Monarch or Ion if I wanted to do that. I mean, you could as well ask me to please play my Legion as a long-range Titan and only ever stay at the core to snipe at people when I know for a fact it has both the health and sustain capability to mix it up in the front lines (it's what Ogre Titans excel at in general). I'm sure it'll work out just fine in the end, but why work so hard trying to hammer a square peg in a round hole. I'm not telling you that you're playing wrong or you shouldn't do it, I simply see no reason to play against type like this.

    The whole point I made this thread in the first place was exactly because being reduced to timid support made me feel completely useless to my team. The simple fact of the matter is that the Ronin's base kit is weak - the weakest of all the Titans. A well-built Monarch will outpace a regular Ronin in just about everything. ****, a well-built North Star can do better support than the Ronin between Harpoon Traps and the absurdity that is the Cluster Missile. I played the Ronin exactly like you suggest and it made me feel like I'm contributing nothing whatsoever. It certainly sapped all the fun out of the experience and represents a period when we lost the Harvester A LOT, especially on War Games.

    Whenever I've had to use my retries, it's almost never Mortar Titans or Mortar Specters causing most of the damage. There have been a time or two, sure. The majority of the time, the Harvester takes damage from a massive clump of Titans crowding around it and piling damage onto it - something a Sword Core Ronin could have cleaned up in seconds. I've yet to actually lose a game in the Ronin, actually. I've lost the occasional retry, but not an entire game ending in failure. That honour goes to my Tone, when I was still levelling it up and wasn't really sure what to do with it.

    The bottom line is this - every other Titan is better at nearly everything than the Ronin. If I can't have a unique selling point - something valuable that the Ronin does better than everybody else - then I see no reason to bother in the first place. Mobility, while useful, only really matters for Mortar Titans and you don't need that level of mobility to kill them. We do just fine playing Frontier Defence without a Ronin on the team. The one BIG selling point for the Titan is that Sword Core chain. Without it, I'd rather play something else.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    Steel_Rook wrote: »
    Err... That's not the fault of the Sword Core, it's the fault of a **** player not to put too fine a point on it. I fully agree that Mortar Titans are a Ronin's duty, but any Ronin worth his salt will finish his current kill so as to top-up his core, then disengage and hunt the Mortar Titan. At worst, a greedy Ronin might want to finish up the current Titan column before heading off to the Mortar Titans. Mobility is a Ronin's asset especially during Sword Core, so not using it is ****. You fight stuff other people are already fighting if there's nothing else on the map TO fight. Trying to fight Nuclear Titans or duel with Scorches when Mortar Titans are barraging the Harvester or an entire flank is left undefended is **** and the fault of the player, not the fault of the Titan.

    You can just as well lambast a Scorch for sitting at the AI Titans' spawn waiting for the ceiling to fall while entire Titan Columns are heading for the Harvester unopposed. Or you can easily criticise pretty much any player who will cross the map trying to kill all the things personally instead of playing the objective. That's a PEBKAC issue.

    I'm not blaming Ronin. I'm just saying that something about his design encourages people to play him different to what was intended. That's what I'm trying to say by the RPG analogues. Trying to use a screw driver as a hammer is silly; if you absolutely have to you could use the handle of the screw driver to hammer something; but a hammer would be better at hammering.

    Perhaps a better analogy is from Japanese history: Samurai vs Shinobi. The name Ronin (a master-less samurai vagrant) would suggest playing the titan as a samurai warrior (a noblemen in full battle armor following a honor bound code of warfare); but his abilities and tactics are more akin to those of a Shinobi (mercenary assassin/spies). Maybe if they called Ronin a different name to signal that people should play him more like a shinobi than a samurai, it'd help people learn how to play him as he was intended.
    Steel_Rook wrote: »
    What would be the point? I could play Monarch or Ion if I wanted to do that. I mean, you could as well ask me to please play my Legion as a long-range Titan and only ever stay at the core to snipe at people when I know for a fact it has both the health and sustain capability to mix it up in the front lines (it's what Ogre Titans excel at in general). I'm sure it'll work out just fine in the end, but why work so hard trying to hammer a square peg in a round hole. I'm not telling you that you're playing wrong or you shouldn't do it, I simply see no reason to play against type like this.

    Monarch's XO gun is very weak not upgraded. She's only really good at assisting other titans stay in lane and fight titans. Using monarch to fight reapers is not good, her energy siphon saps less shield, she needs to dump most of her magazine into a single reaper to kill it. So having monarch on reaper duty is not wise, she's best fighting other titans.

    There are actually two types of reapers, swarm reapers and tick reapers. Tick reapers spawn then move to special points on the map and continue to launch ticks until they are killed (war-games, homestead, relic). Swarm reapers just rush the harvester in packs (like black canal, Kodai, homestead). Ion's better at killing tick reapers, ronin is better at killing reaper swarms; but both can kill any reaper easily, but ronin needs to shotgun tick reapers if they take a perch in a building.

    Legion can be long range when using long range ammo, but that's to prepare foes for close range ammo mode. He's best at holding a line because of his bullet piercing capabilities; assuming a poorly played Ronin allows foes to get into his perfect kill box.

    So the square peg comment is exactly how I feel when I read and see people using ronin in a sword only fashion rather than a ninja.
    Steel_Rook wrote: »
    The whole point I made this thread in the first place was exactly because being reduced to timid support made me feel completely useless to my team. The simple fact of the matter is that the Ronin's base kit is weak - the weakest of all the Titans. A well-built Monarch will outpace a regular Ronin in just about everything. ****, a well-built North Star can do better support than the Ronin between Harpoon Traps and the absurdity that is the Cluster Missile. I played the Ronin exactly like you suggest and it made me feel like I'm contributing nothing whatsoever. It certainly sapped all the fun out of the experience and represents a period when we lost the Harvester A LOT, especially on War Games.

    Ronin is by no means timid and his base kit is not weak. The difficulty is in his attack frequency; he hits hard but then suffers periods when he needs to recover. So continuing to attack a enemy with sword strikes after using phase dash and shotgun is foolish; it's best to run away and find a new attack angle. Hit n' Run.

    So I can understand you feeling 'useless' when your not actively attacking targets; but for me I feel really successful when I Shepard the team in a way so that we never have issue with special mortar / sniper events. A ronin doing their job well is a ronin that appears to have done nothing at all.
    Steel_Rook wrote: »
    Whenever I've had to use my retries, it's almost never Mortar Titans or Mortar Specters causing most of the damage. There have been a time or two, sure. The majority of the time, the Harvester takes damage from a massive clump of Titans crowding around it and piling damage onto it - something a Sword Core Ronin could have cleaned up in seconds. I've yet to actually lose a game in the Ronin, actually. I've lost the occasional retry, but not an entire game ending in failure. That honor goes to my Tone, when I was still leveling it up and wasn't really sure what to do with it.

    That sound to me like a tank broke ranks or died when the traffic in their lane increased during the waves definite spawn periods. Saying that using ronin to kill those foes around the harvester is good isn't a great use of his talents. He should have assisted the team to the point that that situation never happens.

    When I'm the ronin on my team we never lose or lose retries. When someone else is playing Ronin is a 80% change that we'll lose, because of the prevalence of the sword only playstyle (I've pleasantly surprised when I see a 'ninja' ronin player). I don't know what Respawn could do to change player behaviour and perception. It's definitely a problem I've noticed since launch, but it's only become a significant problem for me due to FD mode.
    Steel_Rook wrote: »
    The bottom line is this - every other Titan is better at nearly everything than the Ronin. If I can't have a unique selling point - something valuable that the Ronin does better than everybody else - then I see no reason to bother in the first place. Mobility, while useful, only really matters for Mortar Titans and you don't need that level of mobility to kill them. We do just fine playing Frontier Defense without a Ronin on the team. The one BIG selling point for the Titan is that Sword Core chain. Without it, I'd rather play something else.

    I've listed his unique selling points previously. He's a master of defense disruption by using arc wave, and he can phase dash through foes to get them to turn around an allow allies to shoot past defenses. When he's not helping the team kill things, he's off being an assassin and killing the foes before they become a problem for other allies.

    Tonight I'll try to capture video of a wave of FD where I'm the ronin and show you want I mean by playing in a way that supports the team, and doesn't sabotage them by stealing damage from allies so they can't earn titans, cores, power-ups, steal batteries, etc. Show me a clip of your game. I think we're actually playing similarly, we just have disagreement in definitions.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    So apparently I can't post anything because my comments are "being reviewed." I can post this, but not a longer comment. Let me try to copy-paste the most important bit, then:

    Let's look at some numbers. The Ronin's shotgun deals 75-100 damage to Titans per pellet, 8 pellets per shot, 4 shots per magazine, at 2.5 shots per second, 2.25s reload. The Monarch deals 100-120 damage to Titans per shot, 40 shots per magazine, at 12 rounds per second, 2.6s reload. I'm going to be generous to the Ronin and both assume he can land all pellets of every shot and ignore weak point hits which the Monarch has a much easier time scoring consistently. The Ronin, then, can deal 4*800 = 3200 damage in 1.6 seconds, with a full cycle of shoot-and-reload of 3.85 seconds. That's an overall DPS of ~831.17. The Monarch can deal 40*120 = 4800 damage in ~3.33 seconds, with a cycle of ~5.93 seconds. That's a DPS of ~808.99. Right there, a completely unupgraded Monarch is about as good at stopping Titan Columns as the Ronin is, and that Monarch is at the same time SIGNIFICANTLY tankier even in her base form.

    The Ronin at his best is about as powerful as the Monarch at her worst, in terms of weapon damage. Yes, you can factor in Arc Wave, but then I can factor in two sets of Missile Salvo and two sets of Energy Syphon. And mind you, the Energy Syphon staggers AI Titans the same as the Arc Wave does, despite doing fairly little damage (200 Titan damage). ****, if you're going to use a Titan as a "mobile Arc Trap with smoke," use the Monarch. Her Smoke doubles up as providing Shields to herself and allies and her Syphon is better as an arc trap. This mimics my experience with both the Ronin and the Monarch, both playing them and teaming with them. A Ronin on our Team who doesn't abuse Sword Core rarely manages to accomplish anything of note, and I know this from tracking what they're doing. This includes people I'm on voice chat with, so I get a play-by-play of what they're doing.

    Don't bother capturing videos, I'm not interested in discussing this any more. There are only so many times you can tell me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing with my own two eyes or that the numbers don't say what the numbers clearly say before I lose interest in the discussion. I don't see what else I have to learn here, so you may as well not waste your time.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    @Steel_Rook

    DPS is an average, and when you create an average you're ignoring the distribution of data.

    A = (5 + 5 + 5 / 3) = 5
    B = (0 + 0 + 15 / 3) = 5.

    Sometimes averages are useful but here they're not because in a game it is important to know when damage is actually dealt to a target. You don't judge a boxing match by comparing how many punches a fighter can throw in a minute. You only need one punch to KO, and sometimes you need to throw some punches before to prepare for that KO. Knowing the average punch per minute can give some indication of odds but it's a educated guess at best; a faster puncher may not be able to take a punch and get instantly KO'd.

    So comparing Ronin and Monarch in terms of average DPS isn't fair. Ronin deals high damage in short chunks then needs to rest and recover; thus good players use this rest time to run the map for new attack angles and are thinking tactically about their positioning. Monarch deals damage consistently overtime (but needs to maintain accuracy by trigger discipline), so she's good at stripping health from foes and holding ground. Their average damage maybe similar but their attack styles and strategies are based upon how and when they deal damage, thus they play completely differently.

    Ronin's arc wave staggers multiple opponents in-line and is much more potent than energy siphon. Additionally, arc wave disables enemy defense abilities like tone's partical wall, vortex shield, flame shield, legion's gun wall; arc wave is a defense buster. Energy siphon is blocked by these defensive abilities. So this is what I mean about Ronin: he's great a compromising enemy defenses so allies don't need to waste damage to burn through them. Energy siphon is also painfully slow on normal cool down; arc wave is quickly restored. Ronin's phase dash and block additionally allow him to blink through targets to get them to point their back to allies so their defenses don't work.

    All ready captured the video.

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/OdysseyHome/video/35555570

    Xbox One can only record 5 minutes total, but this was a good capture of a supportive style. I focus on stalkers and reapers and sniper tones. I engage arc Ronin's using the map's cover. I let the monarch execute the arc ronin rushing the lane so I can help the tank hold the harvester. This was a good round.

    But I'm human and do make mistakes, like this:

    http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/OdysseyHome/video/35556749

    This round I over extend my post and got a bit blood thirsty when the nuke titans dropped out back, so I died and wasted time rodeoing to get my titan back. I didn't realize there were enemies near the harvester since the mini-map doesn't show the whole map at once. So 50% damage due to a tone was my fault as the ronin pilot because I should have killed it before it got to the harvester. The team's tank go overwhelmed / attention was divided between lanes and minions were able to sneak in and kill the harvester. I learned from this mistake and played better next round (the earlier video)

    So If anyone stumbles across this discussion looking for tips on how to play Ronin in FD if you play in a team-supportive style with a focus on killing the stalkers, reapers, mortar titans; then help allies kill stuff by arc waving AI to disable their defense abilities. You can then use the shotgun to burst foes at mid-range if you ADS to narrow the pellet spread. Don't use highlander or nukes as @Steel_Rook suggests is the only worth while way of playing ronin because this deals too much damage and robs allies of opportunities to gain cash, titans, and core; so your sabotaging the team doing this, and harming the team harms yourself in the end. It propagates Ronin stigma: he's more ninja than samurai.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    edited August 2017
    Just because I said I'm not interested in discussing the subject doesn't mean the forums will stop notifying me, nor does it mean it's suddenly OK for you to badmouth me as though I'm never going to see it. Did you really have to end the discussion by throwing one last insult my way? Really? I'm going to have to reconsider engaging you in any discussions anywhere on the forums, not just here.
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    Steel_Rook wrote: »
    Just because I said I'm not interested in discussing the subject doesn't mean the forums will stop notifying me, nor does it mean it's suddenly OK for you to badmouth me as though I'm never going to see it. Did you really have to end the discussion by throwing one last insult my way? Really? I'm going to have to reconsider engaging you in any discussions anywhere on the forums, not just here.

    I wasn't insulting / bad mouthing: i was just repeating what you've said in past comments

    If you're not prepared for what other people have to say then why make this disscussion? Was trying to be nice and talk about ronin, but if you don't want to now that's fine.
  • Kabanyash_
    24 postsPosts: 25
    Sorry for not bothering to read througth walls of text.
    Any tips to counter being thrown around like a muppet on ice by enemy/your own melee attacks? Or is it an intended "feature"?
  • HurtMaker3
    1517 postsPosts: 1,541 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kabanyash_ wrote: »
    Sorry for not bothering to read througth walls of text.
    Any tips to counter being thrown around like a muppet on ice by enemy/your own melee attacks? Or is it an intended "feature"?

    Thats a feature. Smaller lighter titans naturely will get pushed when hit by bigger heavier titans. They were just implementing physics. Also its one of the only ways for some titans to get a ronin off them.
  • Cerebus115
    47 postsPosts: 55
    Stay as far from the Harvester as possible and stay mobile at all times. Let other Titans defend it, then take out weak problems like mortar Titans and other Ronins
  • OdysseyHome
    2140 postsPosts: 2,211 ✭✭✭✭
    Kabanyash_ wrote: »
    Sorry for not bothering to read througth walls of text.
    Any tips to counter being thrown around like a muppet on ice by enemy/your own melee attacks? Or is it an intended "feature"?

    Best thing I do to counter my target punching me back (and I miss my swing) is to dash into my initial melee attack so I know it'll hit. I can then phase through the foe to get behind them for some free swings before they turn around (arc wave after dashing through the target).

    Ronin's rather unique in that he can super dash by combining dash and phase dash. If you do this at the top of a hill, you go flying since the game only has ground friction. It's a neat little trick that helps you move fast across maps once you learn where there dash points are location.

    Physics do feel a bit weird but after getting used to them the goofiness is fun.
  • Kabanyash_
    24 postsPosts: 25
    Thanks for the replies. Yeah, I get the bit about being lighter and it seems logical. Not my playstyle at all to be in enemies faces all the time, Ronin is the last one for me in terms of maxing out Aegis bonuses and that "feature" doesn't make it any more comfortable. A bit weird/annoying that you can be so easily stripped off your pretty much only strength, and enemy AI Ronins doesn't seem to fly away like I often do. Thankfully, Nuke Ejection is always there to help me get some cheap kills, lol.
    Best thing I do to counter my target punching me back (and I miss my swing) is to dash into my initial melee attack so I know it'll hit. I can then phase through the foe to get behind them for some free swings before they turn around (arc wave after dashing through the target).

    Ronin's rather unique in that he can super dash by combining dash and phase dash.

    I found it sometimes can produce even greater "counter-dash" so you fly miles away from the target. And Phase has that annoying slowdown bit at the end which drives me nuts, seems like it would be faster to just run in the first place.

    Only plus so far is that sword core with highlander is so OP if you're actually able to stay alive. Saw a guy on Rise who just cleared all waves by himself with his maxed out Ronin.
  • Steel_Rook
    91 postsPosts: 95 ✭✭
    Kabanyash_ wrote: »
    Any tips to counter being thrown around like a muppet on ice by enemy/your own melee attacks? Or is it an intended "feature"?

    I'd actually recommend not meleeing AI Titans unless your Sword Core is active. While powerful, the melee attack opens you up to a lot of return damage as well as being knocked around. You're usually better off shotgunning AI Titans and meleeing them only from behind. I'd typically resort to melee only once my shotgun is empty and they're a strike or two away from being Doomed. If you HAVE to trade blows, I'd suggest opening with an Arc Wave to give you an initial opening and then keep a dash in reserve to counter being pushed.

    The thing with the Ronin is it's a very fragile Titan. You generally don't want to be trading damage with it, since you'll typically come out second best, plus you're eating attrition damage that you don't need to. The only time I'd recommend flipping out like a ninja is with Sword Core and Blade Master, since you can typically out-tank most of the damage trade via regenerating shields.
  • Cerebus115
    47 postsPosts: 55
    People like to spam melee with Ronin and that's ironically the best thing for you. They try as hard as possible to do it at all times that putting out smoke shreds them and then just back up laying fire into them. Then on top of that many Titans can slam damage on after the Phase Dash towards you and waste it, opening up the ability to use all your abilities to pile on even more power. Play it hit-and-run and never stop moving for a second and only use Phase Dash to get away or to bypass planted abilities already fired off.
  • Kabanyash_
    24 postsPosts: 25
    Yep, Ronin is a beast once final Aegis bonus for the Sword Core is active. Played War Games on hard right now and it took few Scorches to finally bring it down, that's when nuke ejection comes in handy. But still it's just not my playstyle and flimsiness doesn't really help it. That being said - I rather prefered Ronin to Ion or Monarch on hard.
    Two clips of gameplay if anyone is interested. WG is on Hard, Kodai - Normal.


    And, as a bonus, here's how you die 50% of the time as a Pilot (other 50% are Ticks):




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